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 Post subject: EDTA and red wine??
PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:51 am 
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Q:. Hello,
Does anybody have any suggestions/explanations regarding the following case:
Patient took 560 mg of EDTA two hours after having 3 glasses of red wine. In less than an hour he went into atrial fib. Lytes showed borderline low potassium and borderline low magnesium. Anion gap was 8. He was taking minerals at a different time of the day on a regular basis. Any comments?
Thank you,
Zoya Voitenko, MA, ND


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 Post subject: EDTA and red wine??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:30 pm 
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A1: Dear Doctor:
If you use my not allowed class="postlink" href="http://www.gordonresearch.com">http://www.gordonresearch.com website and use Search by typing in the words EDTA research, you will find that EDTA has been shown to help reverse and eliminate arrhythmias. I would want to know the source of your EDTA? Which salt was used?

I find many are very sensitive to chemicals now present in many red wines. There is a 1 in 1000 chance of some sensitivity to EDTA but presenting, as at fib has not been reported.

Please understand that real magnesium levels are CRITICAL and lytes are a poor reflection of how seriously depleted your patient is. Hair test by Doctorโ€™s Data is a hint and RBC measures help or sublingual cell testing by specialized labs are very helpful.

Your patient someday will probably be back on EDTA but may become interested in Organic wines.

Sincerely,

Garry F. Gordon MD,DO,MD(H)
President, Gordon Research Institute
http://www.gordonresearch.com


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 Post subject: EDTA and red wine??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:31 pm 
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A2: I assume this was calcium EDTA. If so, the most likely explanation is that in addition to 3 glasses of red wine he also had some coffee or tea or chocolate or a combination of the four. Put them all together and you get atrial fibrillation but not from the calcium edta in my opinion. Dr Steenblock, http://www.strokedoctor.com, http://www.bonemarrowstemcelltherapy.com, http://www.stemcelltherapies.org


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 Post subject: EDTA and red wine??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:33 pm 
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A3: With normal heart, I get hypersensitivity atrial fib from red wine, white wine, hypericum... I control it with fish oil.

2 average glasses - 600ml - of red wine - is too much for health.
what age is he, what smoking, what health problems (why on EDTA), what salt of EDTA, what was his baseline chemistry, what else is he taking???
Atrial fib and "Borderline low K, Mg" are impossible to interpret without the ECG , full metabolic, urea and elecs profile- its like trying to interpret a weight of 75kg without knowing the gender, height and waist girth. Atrial fib is often a periodic clinical phenomenon, it may take 48hr holter monitoring to capture and type it as lone, or ischemic etc.

Neil Burman


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 Post subject: EDTA and red wine??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:35 pm 
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A4: Combination of magnesium and potassium insufficiency with hyperautonomic state due to withdrawal from alcohol, and possible mild dysglycemia... kind of an imperfect storm.

RAM, MD


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 Post subject: EDTA and red wine??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:37 pm 
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A5: I think this would have occurred even without the EDTA. This amount of alcohol is an adrenergic stimulant via dis-inhibition and this is not an unusual presentation for afib (if the EDTA had not been mentioned). Of course, the low K and low Mg lowered the threshold - but K can be lowered by acute adrenergic stress and related glucose / pH fluctuations. I bet also, that the tissue Zinc is also low.
B. Robert Mozayeni, MD


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 Post subject: EDTA and red wine??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:40 pm 
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A6: As an afibber with an 8-year journey before ablation procedure, I can share a few of the findings that seem to hold true with "Lone Paroxysmal Atrial Fibrillation."
First, biochemical individuality comes into high consideration. No two afibbers have exactly the same symptoms or triggers nor do they respond identically the same to nutritional interventions or even rhythm or rate controlling drugs. It always seems to be an experiment of one to see which nutrients or drugs are compatible.
Once the pattern of when afib begins or what triggers it is established, the determination of either adrenergic or vagally-mediated afib tends to help select some avoidance patterns that help maintain NSR.
Identifying triggers is important. Alcohol is a known trigger for some; yet not all. It can be the alcohol or the sulfites, pesticide and fungicide residues in some wines - red more than white. Yet some afibbers do not tolerate any wine; some can drink organic wine. Others can drink beer but not hard liquor and vice versa.
Alcohol depletes magnesium. Sugar depletes magnesium and the "biggie " stress depletes magnesium and is almost always a universal trigger. Often not immediate, but a delayed reaction.
Regarding either alcohol or sugar intake, if the afibber tends to have even a slight tendency toward glucose handling dysfunction, the resulting hypoglycemia frequently triggers afib. Hypoglycemia in the middle of the night is a common trigger (from poor food choices earlier in the evening).
Adequate hydration with pure water is essential. Often afibbers report just that alone helped with the frequency of events. Since alcohol is dehydrating it's worth noting. Those afibbers who are heavy exercisers seem to benefit from carrying with them one of the electrolyte replacement powders similar to EmerGenC by Alacer.(not the one with the chemical sweetener) and not Gatorade which has high fructose corn syrup. In the hot weather, many of the afibbers forget to hydrate and replace electrolytes, especially on the golf course.
Afibbers are typically deficient in both magnesium and potassium but serum values of magnesium do not reflect the intracellular stores and both are extremely important when it comes to regaining and maintaining NSR.
It's important to measure ionized magnesium through the red blood cell magnesium analysis or the Exatest which is sublingual tissue cell scraping to evaluates the intracellular status of electrolytes. It is also important to keep IC levels of magnesium optimal and potassium also becomes critical because if low, the tendency is to shorten the refractory period which makes it easier to slip into the afib pattern.
Supplementing with potassium only (and not magnesium) can make afib worse, so better to replete with magnesium first and then add in supplemental potassium.
The most effective magnesium supplement most of us afibbers have found is the amino acid chelated version - magnesium glycinate using the patented process by Albion. This form does not break down in the stomach and become side-tracked with other combinations in the stomach's chemical soup, but rather arrives at the duodenum ready to go into the blood stream โ€“ intact and ready to work. Not only that, relatively high doses of magnesium can be required to reach IC optimization and this form of magnesium glycinate does not cause bowel intolerance issues until 1200 mg. daily and sometimes, even higher doses.
GI or gut issues become very important and can be highly instrumental in triggering afib especially in those with stomach acid issues, GERD or hiatal hernia. My personal experience involved a diaphragm adjustment that helped eliminated breakthrough arrhythmia while taking the antiarrhythmic flecanide. Any patient who tends toward having an acidic metabolism along with afib needs to alkalize daily through food selection and optimal electrolyte supplementation.
The additional use of amino acid, taurine, helps stabilize the cell membrane and keeps both magnesium and potassium in the cells and the excitatory electrolytes calcium and sodium out or at a synergistic balance.
A note about calcium supplements. Many afibbers who take supplemental calcium find that once stopped and optimal IC magnesium is reached, the AF events either stop completely or occur far less frequently. Calcium (excitatory) dominates the cell in the presence of magnesium deficiency and is often the culprit and we know the majority of the population is deficient in magnesium.. (Reference: The Magnesium Factor by Mildred Seelig, MD, MPH).
Both hypo- and hyper-thyroidism can be triggers for afib.
Dietary assessment becomes extremely important. Eating "clean" - that is whole organic foods (free of pesticide residues and toxins) plus avoiding packaged and processed foods that contain added chemicals for preservatives and flavor enhancers and 'natural' flavorings like MSG is a huge step in eliminating afib.
Artificial sweeteners such as Aspartame/NutraSweet and Sucralose/Splenda are notorious for triggering afib and all foods and drinks containing either should be eliminated.
Caffeine in coffee or drinks may or may not be a trigger. Some afibbers find they can drink organic caffeinated coffee; others cannot. Some can drink decafe; some cannot. Cola drinks or the spiked energy drinks are often typically triggers for the younger afibbers.
And cold drinks, especially, seem to be a trigger whereas room- temperature drinks are not; so avoid cold beverages.
Right along with the added chemical aspects of commercially-prepared foods goes the success that many afibbers experience when gluten containing grains are eliminated. Even if testing does not reveal gluten/gliaden sensitivity, afibbers have found success in following a Paleo type eating plan that eliminates all grains - with the possible exception using organic brown rice when they can't bear to give up all grains. Right along with that comes the elimination of dairy products since the casein protein often is just as irritating as the gluten protein.
The issues of silent celiac and the resulting irritation/inflammatory issues involved seem to be an important factor in controlling afib and it's something rarely addressed in conventional medicine. It the vagus become irritated in a person prone to afib, there will be an event.
The least expensive and easiest test to check for gluten sensitivity is to have the patient stop all grains and dairy for at least two weeks โ€“ longer if possible and take note of the symptoms or lack thereof. Often they note significantly fewer ectopy that lead to afib and many eventually to adopt the Paleo diet permanently. They can re-introduce one grain at a time but typically the symptoms repeat so dramatically that they go right back on the diet that eliminates the grain..or at least the gluten-containing grains. Many use organic brown rice.
In addition to the typical wheat, rye, barley, triticale, kamut and spelt, oats should also be avoided because even if said to be organic and free of gluten, the harvesting, transporting, processing and packaging, tends to leave the oats significantly contaminated with gluten. Assays have been made of organic oats from 'oats-only' facilities and even the majority of those were found to be contaminated. So.oats is out as well. That's why the Paleo plan is easy. No grains - period. http://www.paleodiet.com/ Additionally, I always used CoQ10 - at least 100 mg. daily to that I would also add D-ribose, especially when waiting out a prolonged event that might last longer than a few hours. And Omega 3 fish oils - 6 grams a day. I had/have a long list of those to help with heart energy, electrolytes, anti-inflammatory and anti-platelet aggregation. I found comfort in using Nattokinase rather than resort to warfarin or aspirin. But I always had a Plan B to use in case of a prolonged event - just for peace of mind.
There is no cure for afib. And, an absolute etiology has not been established either. Ablations and Maze procedures are often successful when done by the best electrophysiologists or cardiac surgeons, but they are invasive and carry the same risks of any similar procedure so for patients willing to try nutritional interventions and lifestyle changes, it seems a sensible approach to start with.
I'll be glad to share more of my experiences and protocols by email. As you can imagine, I have volumes of references and will gladly share.
Healthy regards,
Jackie Burgess, RDH, (retired)


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 Post subject: EDTA and red wine??
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:55 pm 
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A7: A suggestion only : wine contains sulfites. Additionally much of the wine on the market is treated with additional sulfites to preserve it.This is true about some of the processed foods as well. Sulfites are known to cause allergic (sometimes extreme) reactions, including such affecting the lungs & heart. Also, although red wine is often considered as "good for the heart" (resveratrol) - any form of alcohol is usually considered as a serious potential trigger of atrial fib.
Jim lev, CECGT, LMT


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 Post subject: Re: EDTA and red wine??
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 3:01 pm 
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